Diskussion:Edwin Dutton

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Deutscher und/oder Brite[Quelltext bearbeiten]

Dass Dutton ab 1914 in Ruhleben interniert war, bedeutet, dass er zu dem Zeitpunkt Brite gewesen sein muss. Warum konnte er vorher für Deutschland spielen? Das ist unklar, zumal verschiedene Quellen unterschiedliche Geburtsorte nennen (vgl. englischsprachiges Wiki). Wenn er tatsächlich in Schlesien geboren war, hat das möglicherweise ausgereicht. Vielleicht war ja auch seine Mutter Deutsche. Da man all das nicht weiß, würde ich das lieber so vage formulieren wie bisher („deutsch-britisch“). Bei Newcastle hat er nach Auskunft des Vereinsarchivs meistens in der 2. Mannschaft und nach dem Krieg als Amateur gespielt. -- Gruß JustinCase (Diskussion) 12:09, 9. Aug. 2018 (CEST)

@User:JustinCase: Passt der Teil zu seiner Zeit in Deutschland, v.a. für den Zeitraum bis 1910 ("Jugendabteilung"?, Zeiträume der Vereinszugehörigkeiten etc.)? Zuletzt hat Paul Joannou in Newcastle United: The Ultimate Who's Who 1881 - 2014. N Publishing, Newcastle upon Tyne 2014, ISBN 978-0-9568156-1-3 eine Kurzbiografie veröffentlicht, die ein paar zusätzliche Infos enthält und auch im British Newspaper Archive finden sich ein paar Schnipsel, seine Zeit in Ipswich wird in im schon 1986 erschienen The men who made the town. Official history of Ipswich Town F.C. ausreichend beschrieben. Würde mich da dran setzen, fände es aber gut, wenn der deutsche Artikelteil up-to-date und noch wichtiger, inhaltlicch korrekt wäre. --Ureinwohner uff 17:03, 1. Dez. 2019 (CET)
A lot of interned British citizens, including Edwin Dutton, Steve Bloomer and Sam Wolstenholme, were allowed to go to the Netherlands before the end of the war. They were still interned but no longer had to live in a camp. In the summer of 1918 Dutton played cricket for V.V.V. in Amsterdam. He got a 3 month contract as AFC trainer starting 1 August 1918. [1]. When the war ended he returned to England. In 1924 he was living in The Hague again. [2] His wife was the daughter of his trainer at Newcastle United, James Quar McPherson sr. (James Quar McPherson Jr. was the Bayern Münich trainer). Dutton must haved returned to the Netherlands before 1924. In 1921, 1922, 1923 and 1924 there is a E. Dutton playing cricket for V.V.V. again. There's also this picture of E. Dutton manager of a sport equipment store in The Hague, helping to introduce the sport of table tennis in the Netherlands [3]. Cattivi (Diskussion) 23:30, 1. Dez. 2019 (CET)
I love you :-). There are only a few articles that mention, that Dutton was back in Newcastle at some point after the war, but nothing about him playing again. Makes much more sense, that he was somewhere else. Im also not sure, about him being the trainer/coach of Stuttgarter Kickers for two full years. Whern he joined Ipswich, several articles state, that he was assistant coach at South Shields F.C. for two years, so he was possibly back in England in 1925. His brother in law nl:Robert McPherson was also with Ipswich later on, there was also a friendly match between Ipswich and Roberts Dutch club at some point. I'll put the pieces together at Benutzer:Ureinwohner/Testgelände8, you're welcome. --Ureinwohner uff 19:30, 2. Dez. 2019 (CET)

Thanks a lot, everybody. Your research will brighten up the post-war part of his career which seems to have been obscured by some clouds. So far, I had neglected that part and done research on the "German years" only, including the re-amteurization issue. What still puzzles me is how Dutton could have been eligible to play for Germany and yet be treated as a British citizen in 1914. I've been able to contact one of his descendants, though, who knew for sure about his dates of birth and passing away, respectably. -- Best, JustinCase (Diskussion) 23:15, 2. Dez. 2019 (CET)

Ich lese gerade Steve Bloomers Erinnerungen in der Sunday Post, da wird z.B. beschrieben, wie irgendwann 1915 pro-deutsch eingestellte „Briten“ im Lager zusammengeozgen wurden, er schreibt dazu: „On that particular morning the commandant, accompanied by his officers, paraded us in front of our barracks. "If there are any men of German sympathies among you." he bawled, "let them stand out to one side.” A few technical Britishers, for the most part who had been born and bred in Germany and who hardly knew a word of English, stood out. They were taken to a small clearing by one of the soldiers, whilst the Baron and his officers went round to the other barracks and sorted out the pro-Germans from these places. When they were all collected into one bunch the commandant came back Barrack One. “You will all collect your baggage,“ he shouted, “and clear out here at once.” And without more ado we were hustled inside to gather our together, and then scattered to the four winds of the camp, whilst the pro Germans were moved into our barracks.“ --Ureinwohner uff 00:25, 3. Dez. 2019 (CET)

See also Dundee Courier: „AIRDRIE VISIT PITTODRIE“ (Published: Friday, 21 October 1910) (nicht signierter Beitrag von (Diskussion) 00:00, 3. Dez. 2019 (CET))

The rules used to be different, or more ambiguous than today. Georges Hebdin was born in Belgium, but he only had British citizenship. In 1912 foreign players were allowed to play for a country if they were residents of that country for more than 10 years. Before 1912, France had objections against Belgium fielding a foreign player, the Netherlands did not (I'm not sure they even knew). Fielding expatriates used to be controversial as well. Germany filed a protest against Nico Bouvy playing for the Netherlands against England amateurs in 1913. He was living abroad most of the time in the 1913/14 season, but still a registered DFC player (only 1 league game for DFC that season). He started the season with Altona and finished it with Manchester City (amateur in the reserves). Some people from the DFB tried to suspend Bouvy in Germany because he had played for the Netherlands. [4] (page 17, direct links to pages don't always work) Cattivi (Diskussion) 10:45, 3. Dez. 2019 (CET)
In April 1909 Belgium stopped fielding Englishmen (I find it hard to believe they didn't know they were English (IFFHS Belgique/België 1904-1940 page 16)) . Was it ever allowed, only tolerated by some, or were these just 'accidents'? Cattivi (Diskussion) Cattivi (Diskussion) 14:39, 3. Dez. 2019 (CET)
„Nico Bouvy in Duitschland geschorst“: Thank you, Cattivi, for the link. It was just a temporary lapse of DFB reason, though. Bouvy scored twice when Altona won their next match two weeks later (see article). -- Best, JustinCase (Diskussion) 18:18, 13. Dez. 2019 (CET)